The following is my first question to Brian (in Green) with his response (in Blue) and my reply (Bold Green).
Hi
SP,
I will try to respond to your statements and question(s), but please bear in mind that I am not an expert, nor a spokesperson for YECs, though I will speak only as someone that accepts the bible as the word of God, and also accepts as accurate the interpretation of the bible that places the creation of the Earth as less than 10,000 years ago.
SP writes
“Being that you are a Young Earth Creationist, I am intrigued by the alternate explanations you have for a variety of concepts that are explained currently by scientific theories. To me, YEC means that you accept that all existence is no older than 10,000 years old and at some after the creation event the Earth was covered by water for a year which destroyed all life except that which was brought aboard a ship with eight humans. According to the Ussher Chronology, accepted by most YEC organizations the creation event was in 4004 BCE and the Flood occurred between 2349-2348 BCE, 6016 & 4361 years ago respectively.”
This is mostly true, but I do not stick firmly to particular dates such as those given by Ussher, but I am happy to use them as a template as a ‘rough guide’ to the timeframe. I do not though believe that the Flood “destroyed all life except that which wasbrought aboard a ship with eight humans” as it was only the ‘land dwelling animals with breath in their nostrils’ that needed to be saved, as those plants and organisms that could survive a flood did not need to be taken onboard the Ark.
I will try to respond to your statements and question(s), but please bear in mind that I am not an expert, nor a spokesperson for YECs, though I will speak only as someone that accepts the bible as the word of God, and also accepts as accurate the interpretation of the bible that places the creation of the Earth as less than 10,000 years ago.
SP writes
“Being that you are a Young Earth Creationist, I am intrigued by the alternate explanations you have for a variety of concepts that are explained currently by scientific theories. To me, YEC means that you accept that all existence is no older than 10,000 years old and at some after the creation event the Earth was covered by water for a year which destroyed all life except that which was brought aboard a ship with eight humans. According to the Ussher Chronology, accepted by most YEC organizations the creation event was in 4004 BCE and the Flood occurred between 2349-2348 BCE, 6016 & 4361 years ago respectively.”
This is mostly true, but I do not stick firmly to particular dates such as those given by Ussher, but I am happy to use them as a template as a ‘rough guide’ to the timeframe. I do not though believe that the Flood “destroyed all life except that which wasbrought aboard a ship with eight humans” as it was only the ‘land dwelling animals with breath in their nostrils’ that needed to be saved, as those plants and organisms that could survive a flood did not need to be taken onboard the Ark.
Brian:
Which is why I asked about a list of land dwelling animals that do not
currently exist being on the Ark.
SP writes
“The Noachian Flood event is one that I’ve always been interested in as the claims made by creationists about his occurrence are easily tested by the scientific method. One claim that I’d like you to explain is the following. In Genesis 6 & 7 it is claimed that the Ark contained 2 of every beast and foul of the Earth (7 of the clean types) including “every thing that creepeth upon the earth”.
I will simply repeat that this gives the false impression that Noah needed to take every ‘species’ of organism onto the Ark, but this is incorrect as I have intimated above. Noah did not need to bring representatives of ‘every species’ as it was only representatives of the bird ‘kinds’ and the land dwelling creatures that breathed through their nostrils that needed to be taken unto the ark. This means that he only needed to take representatives of the amphibian, reptile, mammal and bird kinds unto the ark. If you check out the number of these ‘species’ living on Earth now there are only about 30000 ‘species’ of these, and many of these, such as bats, have many variations on the same kind of animal. So it has been estimated that there would only have need to be between 2-10000 animals on the ark. Perhaps you are aware that they are building a full size ark in the US at the moment to answer some of the sceptical questions that have been raised about it’s feasibility.
SP writes
“The Noachian Flood event is one that I’ve always been interested in as the claims made by creationists about his occurrence are easily tested by the scientific method. One claim that I’d like you to explain is the following. In Genesis 6 & 7 it is claimed that the Ark contained 2 of every beast and foul of the Earth (7 of the clean types) including “every thing that creepeth upon the earth”.
I will simply repeat that this gives the false impression that Noah needed to take every ‘species’ of organism onto the Ark, but this is incorrect as I have intimated above. Noah did not need to bring representatives of ‘every species’ as it was only representatives of the bird ‘kinds’ and the land dwelling creatures that breathed through their nostrils that needed to be taken unto the ark. This means that he only needed to take representatives of the amphibian, reptile, mammal and bird kinds unto the ark. If you check out the number of these ‘species’ living on Earth now there are only about 30000 ‘species’ of these, and many of these, such as bats, have many variations on the same kind of animal. So it has been estimated that there would only have need to be between 2-10000 animals on the ark. Perhaps you are aware that they are building a full size ark in the US at the moment to answer some of the sceptical questions that have been raised about it’s feasibility.
Brian:
So then what is a “kind” are all carnivores a “kind”, what about all animals in
the same genus??? What is a
scientifically testable definition of the word that would apply to all
instances?
SP writes
“Creationists also claim that all geological layers of the Earth were formed during this yearlong flood and therefore all the fossils in these layers were animals that existed before the flood.”
As I say, I am not an expert on this, but I would not say that it is necessary for ‘every’ fossil we find to have been laid down during the Flood, as there may have been local floods that created some of the fossil assemblages both before and after the Flood, but it is likely than these types are in the minority, and that most of the fossils are from the great Flood.
SP writes
“Creationists also claim that all geological layers of the Earth were formed during this yearlong flood and therefore all the fossils in these layers were animals that existed before the flood.”
As I say, I am not an expert on this, but I would not say that it is necessary for ‘every’ fossil we find to have been laid down during the Flood, as there may have been local floods that created some of the fossil assemblages both before and after the Flood, but it is likely than these types are in the minority, and that most of the fossils are from the great Flood.
Brian:
So if we take your statement as is, how would we know the sedimentary rocks
that were formed before the flood? Would
we rely on the Law of Superposition only or is there another way to date these
pre-flood fossil beds? The ones formed
after the flood would be easy, again Law of Superposition, but they would only
contain modern animals I assume? Would
you agree??? Since you are claiming that one Flood that lasted only a year
created all these (besides the aforementioned pre&post deposits), how do
you explain Aeolian layers (some are so delicate as to contain spider
footprints) mixed in with all the other layers?
How does this occur when the whole Earth is completely covered by water?
SP writes
“Taking these claims together means that if you can find an animal in the fossil record, it was part of the menagerie on the Ark and would have included: Dinosaurs, Pleistocene Megafauna (like Glyptodons, Megatherium, Mammoths/Mastodons), Acanthostegians, Ichthyostegians, Temnospondyls, Diadectomorphas, Captorhinids, Gorganopsia, Dicynodontia, Dimetrodons, Anthracosaurs, Cynodonts, & Pterosaurs to name a few.”
Yes I do believe that some dinosaurs were on the Ark, but as we don’t know how many different types there were, I can’t list them, but there may have been 100-500 different kinds of them. As for the other creatures on your list, if we assume that each of them were land living creatures that needed to be on the Ark, then yes, I do believe that representatives of their kinds needed to be on the Ark. I would suspect though that some of them will need to be discussed for other reasons as I am sure that you will want to use them to ‘prove’ evolution, but we can leave that discussion until another time.
Brian:
Actually the short list I gave you was of currently extinct land animal groups
which I brought up as they (and the others I did not list) apply directly to my
question below: “…why it is that we ONLY find animals alive today that are the
most recent in the fossil record and NOT any of the other millions of species…”
. This is the real crux of the question,
why would a worldwide flood lead worldwide fossil deposits that contain modern
organisms at the top layers only?
SP writes
“the Law of Superposition & Radiometric Dating are used to determine the relative and absolute ages of life we find in the fossil record, which brings me to my question.”
As I am sure you are aware, I will dispute the accuracy of these dating methods, but since this is not part of your present question, I will leave this for the moment.
SP writes
“the Law of Superposition & Radiometric Dating are used to determine the relative and absolute ages of life we find in the fossil record, which brings me to my question.”
As I am sure you are aware, I will dispute the accuracy of these dating methods, but since this is not part of your present question, I will leave this for the moment.
Brian:
I hope when you “…dispute the accuracy of these dating methods…” you also will
explain why alternative geochronological techniques using different materials all
converge on the same dates.
SP writes
“Given that there has been a HUGE variety of life that has existed on the Earth (as evident from the fossil record), that YEC’s claim that all the fossil bearing rock (even all strata) were produced during the Noachian Flood event, and that at least two of all beasts and foul were carried on the Ark that existed before the flood, why is it that we only find animals alive today that are the most recent in the fossil record and NOT any of the other millions of species that, according to modern science, date to the end of the last ice age?”
Perhaps the best way to start my reply to this question would be to clear up some common misunderstandings / misconceptions which are promoted in the books of most of the evolutionary biologists that I have read.
I am not aware of any YEC that believes that the life-forms which are with us today are in the exact forms as the ones that were created by God in the beginning. Any YEC that I know of, accept a limited form or ‘evolution’ if you define the word as ‘change over time’. This seems to be one of the roots of the misconceptions which are perpetuated by many evolutionists.
YEC accept both natural selection and mutations as real processes that can explain some of the variations of the different kinds of creatures that we observe. So we do believe that the original kinds of creatures that God created have ‘changed over time’ and therefore we do not deny every type of ‘evolution’ if this is how you define it. Maybe you should define what you mean by ‘evolution’ as maybe I accept a lot more of it than you think ;-)
To further address your question above, I only believe that a few thousand kinds of land animals needed to be on the Ark. I would also believe that after the animals left the Ark many of them had to adapt to new and unfamiliar environments.
SP writes
“Given that there has been a HUGE variety of life that has existed on the Earth (as evident from the fossil record), that YEC’s claim that all the fossil bearing rock (even all strata) were produced during the Noachian Flood event, and that at least two of all beasts and foul were carried on the Ark that existed before the flood, why is it that we only find animals alive today that are the most recent in the fossil record and NOT any of the other millions of species that, according to modern science, date to the end of the last ice age?”
Perhaps the best way to start my reply to this question would be to clear up some common misunderstandings / misconceptions which are promoted in the books of most of the evolutionary biologists that I have read.
I am not aware of any YEC that believes that the life-forms which are with us today are in the exact forms as the ones that were created by God in the beginning. Any YEC that I know of, accept a limited form or ‘evolution’ if you define the word as ‘change over time’. This seems to be one of the roots of the misconceptions which are perpetuated by many evolutionists.
YEC accept both natural selection and mutations as real processes that can explain some of the variations of the different kinds of creatures that we observe. So we do believe that the original kinds of creatures that God created have ‘changed over time’ and therefore we do not deny every type of ‘evolution’ if this is how you define it. Maybe you should define what you mean by ‘evolution’ as maybe I accept a lot more of it than you think ;-)
To further address your question above, I only believe that a few thousand kinds of land animals needed to be on the Ark. I would also believe that after the animals left the Ark many of them had to adapt to new and unfamiliar environments.
Brian:
Ok, so your opinion is that only a few “kinds” needed to be on the Ark, but I
still would like to know why the most recent fossil species are the ones found
current living and why we do not find species deeper in the fossil record/radiometricly
dated to be older currently alive?
This would have meant that genetic
variability, natural selection and mutations, lead to variations and
adaptations in the populations of these kinds of animals.
I am not sure that there were ‘millions’ of species in the past, but many that are now called separate species, were perhaps just numerous variations on the kinds of animals that left the ark. When you mention ‘millions’ of species you are probably referring to the vast majority of organisms that did not need to be on the Ark, such as plants, insects and aquatic life.
Even within the 30,000 or so land living, air breathing creatures on the Earth at the moment that are many different variations of the same type of animals. Apparently about 1/5 of all mammals on the Earth at the moment are bats! When you also consider the many different ‘breeds’ of dogs there are, it is quite easy to understand that many of what are described as ‘new species’ in the fossil record, are really only variations of already ‘discovered’ creatures.
As for when the last ice age was, many YEC believe that the Flood may have started an ice age which lasted for a 1000 years or so, and this means that many of the creatures that are alive today are only the survivors of both the Flood and the different climate that ensued after the Flood. Not all of the creatures would have adapted equally well to the new conditions, and no doubt many of them have gone extinct since the Flood due to a number of different reasons, including predation by man.
I am not sure that there were ‘millions’ of species in the past, but many that are now called separate species, were perhaps just numerous variations on the kinds of animals that left the ark. When you mention ‘millions’ of species you are probably referring to the vast majority of organisms that did not need to be on the Ark, such as plants, insects and aquatic life.
Even within the 30,000 or so land living, air breathing creatures on the Earth at the moment that are many different variations of the same type of animals. Apparently about 1/5 of all mammals on the Earth at the moment are bats! When you also consider the many different ‘breeds’ of dogs there are, it is quite easy to understand that many of what are described as ‘new species’ in the fossil record, are really only variations of already ‘discovered’ creatures.
As for when the last ice age was, many YEC believe that the Flood may have started an ice age which lasted for a 1000 years or so, and this means that many of the creatures that are alive today are only the survivors of both the Flood and the different climate that ensued after the Flood. Not all of the creatures would have adapted equally well to the new conditions, and no doubt many of them have gone extinct since the Flood due to a number of different reasons, including predation by man.
Brian:
So I’m still waiting for you to explain why only the most recent animals in the
fossil record are the ones alive today and why we do not see those recent organisms
distributed throughout the fossil record?
SP Writes
“Concurrently, why are none of the species that currently exist found in any of the other layers of sediments if they were all laid down during one event, the Noachian Flood, and, as claimed by YEC’s, all organisms found all sedimentary layers must have existed together before the flood?”
This is again a misconception, though we believe that the ‘ancestors’ of all living kinds of animals were on the Ark, we do not claim that they have all survived to this time, nor that they have not changed. We accept that many of the descendants of those that were on the Ark have not survived to this day, for a number of different reasons, so we do not believe that the animals that live today existed in the same form back on the Ark or before it. If you want to narrow down your enquiry to something more specific I will be happy to reply, but this is just a general reply to a general question.
SP Writes
“Concurrently, why are none of the species that currently exist found in any of the other layers of sediments if they were all laid down during one event, the Noachian Flood, and, as claimed by YEC’s, all organisms found all sedimentary layers must have existed together before the flood?”
This is again a misconception, though we believe that the ‘ancestors’ of all living kinds of animals were on the Ark, we do not claim that they have all survived to this time, nor that they have not changed. We accept that many of the descendants of those that were on the Ark have not survived to this day, for a number of different reasons, so we do not believe that the animals that live today existed in the same form back on the Ark or before it. If you want to narrow down your enquiry to something more specific I will be happy to reply, but this is just a general reply to a general question.
Brian:
I refer again to my question directly above. You must have some type of explanation
for why only the top most layers of the fossil record represent the current
flora/fauna existing today and why, if a worldwide flood caused all (or nearly
all) the sedimentary layers we do not find any recent organisms mixed into the
older/deeper layers or any organisms of those older/deeper layers alive
today. This seems like a question that
YEC’s like yourself would have to answer to be taken seriously when denying
modern evolutionary biology’s explanation for the same facts.
I have attempted to answer your question and I await your response to my last post before we move on.
I have attempted to answer your question and I await your response to my last post before we move on.
Brian:
I’m sorry, but I don’t see an answer to my question. Can you please try again.
SP
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